Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Mié Feb 07, 2018 5:04 pm

Se acabó. Fin. Podemos discutir sobre otros temas, porque este está zanjado :)

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18 ... -airplanes

The French Army Eyes All-New Fleet of Light Attack Airplanes
The head of the service's aviation arm is eager to get modern choppers, too, but says fixed-wing planes make more sense in various situations.


The French Army is in the process of defining the armament and other characteristics of its future Airbus H160M helicopters, which will replace its aging Aérospatiale SA342 Gazelles in the armed scout role. At the same time, particularly given the demands of France’s broad counter-terrorism campaign in Northwest Africa, the service is looking at light attack aircraft to supplement scout and gunship helicopters in certain circumstances and as cost-effective alternative to expensive multi-role combat aircraft.

According to a report by Flight Global, the French Army is looking at a version of the still-in-development H160M that will have provisions for a forward-firing 20mm cannon, two door-mounted 7.62mm machine guns, and the ability to launch laser-guided 70mm rockets. This largely mirrors the existing weapon options for the SA342, but would also give the new helicopters a low-cost precision guided munitions capability. Earlier in 2018, Airbus launched the first Thales FZ275 laser guided rockets from an H145M helicopter with a similar weapons package, called the HForce, which also includes an L3 MX-15D sensor turret with electro-optical and infrared cameras and a laser designator.

The French Army already has a “box full of ideas” about what it will do with H160Ms, Lieutenant General Michel Grintchenko, chief of the French Army Light Aviation branch, or Aviation Légère de l’Armée de Terre or ALAT, said at a conference in London on Jan. 31, 2018, according to Flight Global. The senior officer was also “confident” that he would be able to replace each of his approximately 80 Gazelles with a new helicopter.

In March 2017, the French government announced plans to procure as many as 190 of the new choppers from Airbus to replace the Gazelles, as well as Dauphin, Panther, and Fennec across all arms of the country’s military under the Inter-service Light Helicopter program, also known by its French acronym HIL. That project also involves upgrades to the service’s Tiger gunship helicopters and the acquisition of more NH90 transport choppers to supplant older Puma and Cougar types.


But when it comes to the SA342, beyond just being a more modern aircraft – the original Gazelle prototype first flew in 1967 – the H160M also has two engines instead of one and will have significantly greater range and payload capacity over the older helicopters. Grintchenko said that this could open up the possibility of using them for light transport, medical evacuation and command and control functions.

All of these capabilities could be especially useful for France with regards to its sprawling counter-terrorism effort across the Sahel region of Africa, the scrubland zone that divides North Africa and the Sahara Desert from the true sub-Saharan parts of the continent. At present, French troops operate from Mauritania, through Mali and Niger, all the way to Chad, with forces in each of those countries, as other locations in the region, as part of a mission dubbed Operation Barkhane. They are engaged in active conflict with a variety of Al Qaeda and ISIS-linked terrorist groups, as well as local militants.


AIRBUS
One of Airbus' H160 prototypes, which will serve as the basis for the militarized H160M.

The entire region is notably austere, with operations often occurring in remote areas far from large established bases in major population centers. Helicopters and other aircraft have become essential to supporting those activities, with the French often forming temporary air-land task forces to conduct long distance patrols through so-called “ungoverned spaces.” This term applies to areas where formal governments have little presence, giving terrorists and other armed groups, as well as criminal elements, places to flourish.

#Mali: An interesting find is this #Barkhane forward operating base in Abeïbara, #Kidal Region - @StravaEng h/t @Nrg8000 pic.twitter.com/HdTlJQKC48

— MENASTREAM (@MENASTREAM) January 27, 2018
But given the nature of the terrain, the ALAT is becoming increasingly of the view that helicopters might not be the best tool for all situations and that relying on fast-moving French Air Force multi-role fighter jets to provide additional support simply isn’t practical or cost effective. Lieutenant General Grintchenko revealed to a gathering in London that he was actively looking at acquiring a fleet of manned, fixed wing light attack aircraft to supplement his rotary wing fleet.


Why do I need to use a helicopter to do this particular mission; it has to be because I have something to do on the ground [and need to land in a confined area],” the ALAT’s commander posited, according to a separate report from Jane’s. “If I don’t need to do anything on the ground [such as area surveillance or close air support], then why don’t I use a fixed-wing aircraft instead? It is much cheaper.

France has already seen the limitations in its existing posture as it rushed to support American forces caught in an ambush in Niger in October 2017. It took an hour for French forces in that country’s capital Niamey to get Mirage 2000 jets over the battlefield. It took even longer for Tiger gunships and Puma transport helicopters, some which had to fly in from neighboring Mali, to arrive on the scene, by which time four U.S. Army soldiers were dead.

Grintchenko did not specify any particular aircraft he was interested in buying, but he has no shortage of possible options. The French Air Force has ordered a number of Pilatus PC-21 turboprop trainers, a type that could potentially serve as the basis for a light attack platform. The French Army could potentially find a way to leverage that existing deal for its own needs.


ADRIAN PINGSTONE VIA WIKIMEDIA
A Pilatus PC-21 trainer.

The ALAT also has a small number of PC-6 light utility aircraft, an older type that the U.S. Air Force briefly experimented with in an armed configuration in the 1970s and that went on to serve as a light attacker with the Royal Thai Air Force afterwards. Those aircraft are now out of production, though there are a significant number of them available on the second-hand market.

There has otherwise been a renaissance of sorts for light attack aircraft in recent years in general, even among larger air forces, such the U.S. Air Force. That service is in the midst of its own experiment with these types of aircraft, which has examined a variety of options presently on the market, ranging from low-cost jets to armed turboprop trainers to modified crop dusters. That future of that program remains uncertain, though.


Z3144228 VIA WIKIMEDIA
A Royal Thai Air Force AU-23 Peacemaker light attack aircraft, based on the Pilatus PC-6, in 2013.

Any of those options could offer the ALAT much more flexibility to respond to contingencies, especially in Africa. They would almost certainly offer greater range, speed, and a heavier armament compared to armed scout or gunship helicopters.

As such, they would be able to orbit over particular areas for longer periods of time. Coupled with lightweight sensors, such as electro-optical or infrared cameras and the same low-cost laser-guided rocket capability the French Army plans for its armed choppers, these aircraft could be even more formidable weapons.

This would also reduce the need to rely on the much more expensive to operate Mirage 2000s and Rafale fighter jets for longer range missions and to provide rapid support in the event of an ambush or other crisis. Lower- and slower-flying light attackers might just be better suited to providing close air support in certain circumstances, too. During the October 2017 ambush in Niger, French pilots reported that they did not engage the enemy forces in part because of a fear of accidentally hitting the American troops with their laser-guided bombs.

The French military already has some historical experience mixing armed helicopters and light attack aircraft together, too. During its counter-insurgency campaign in Algeria in the 1950s and 1960s, the French Air Force formed dedicated light attack squadrons to complement ALAT fixed-wing and helicopter units. The combined force operated a variety of armed trainers and other modified aircraft during the conflict.


USAF
A French Rafale multi-role fighter jet links up with an American aerial refueling tanker during a mission over Iraq in 2017.

It’s not clear when the French Army might actually get any H160Ms or light attack aircraft, though. Airbus has run into a number of delays with the H160 series of helicopters as a whole.

The European aviation consortium had originally said it would deliver the first civilian models to buyers some time in 2016, but now doesn’t expect the initial prototypes to even receive a flight certification until 2019. This delay was likely a factor in the French Navy’s decision to go ahead and scrap its dated Alouette III helicopters, another type the militarized H160M was supposed to replace, and lease additional AS365 Dauphins in the meantime.

On top of that, the French government had itself expected the new helicopters would arrive in 2024, but the country’s new President Emmanuel Macron then proposed cutting military spending after entering office in 2017. Following the resignation of the Armed Forces Chief of Staff, General Pierre de Villiers, in protest, Macron changed course, promising to boost the country’s defense budget by more than $2 billion, with a significant portion going to paying for overseas operations.

Exactly how these shifts have affected the country’s long term military procurement plans will likely become clear when France releases details about the latest plan to fund the military, expected to come later in 2018. If Grintchenko has been as vocal behind the scenes as he was in London, the French Army’s aviation arm might end up looking very different over the next six years.
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor Orel el Mié Feb 07, 2018 5:09 pm

Se acabó. Fin. Podemos discutir sobre otros temas, porque este está zanjado :)
“Why do I need to use a helicopter to do this particular mission... why don’t I use a fixed-wing aircraft instead? It is much cheaper.”

Voy a hacer de abogado del diablo :wink: : eso en teoría zanja el debate sobre utilidad de helicópteros de combate, pero entonces sale a colación este argumento del mismo artículo y lo tumba: no todo es el coste, también el poder volar más bajo y más lento para dar apoyo:
This would also reduce the need to rely on the much more expensive to operate Mirage 2000s and Rafale fighter jets for longer range missions and to provide rapid support in the event of an ambush or other crisis. Lower- and slower-flying light attackers might just be better suited to providing close air support in certain circumstances, too.

Y resulta que nadie puede ir más lento ni más bajo que un helicóptero. Se aceptan helicópteros no tripulados.


:arrow: Aparte, detalle importante:
The French Army... is looking at light attack aircraft...
Why do I need to use a helicopter to do this particular mission... why don’t I use a fixed-wing aircraft instead? It is much cheaper

Y no olvidemos:
France turns to armed drones in fight against Sahel militants
september 5, 2017
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1BG2K2

Lo segundo no es una posibilidad que están analizando, ya está firmado. Esa docena de Reaper pedidos por el Armée de l'Air son aviones de ala fija, ligeros y sin piloto :wink:
Y no sólo: recordemos que el Armée de Terre también está planteándose armar los 14 Patroller ya firmados, también aviones de ala fija, ligeros y sin piloto.

Saludos!
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Mié Feb 07, 2018 5:48 pm

Pero te saltas los pasajes que he citado... y que no dejan lugar a engaño: rapidez comparada a un helo, costes comparados a un helo o a un multirrol (que es aberrante emplearlo en el sahel)...

No niega el papel de los helos armados... pero es que es el JEMA del AdA francés. A él no le corresponde decidir sobre los helos de ataque, ¿no? A él le toca decidir sobre los recursos del AdA

Y en su ámbito de decisión, hay situaciones que no cubre bien un multirrol. Diría que un UAV armado es menos flexible que un avión tripulado en lo que a CAS se refiere, puesto que está limitado a emplear munición de precisión. Habrá situaciones en las que no se podrá emplear un PGM, LGB o incluso hellfire

Sobre todo (aunque, insisto, creo que no es de su competencia) da un razonamiento definitivo: si hay que "hacer algo en el suelo" o "aterrizar en superficies pequeñas", entonces el helo tiene sentido. Si no, un COIN es mucho más barato que un helo

Además, los precedentes franceses de la combinación de ala fija y ala rotatoria en los 50 y 60 son algo que no había tenido en cuenta y que tiene todo el sentido
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor champi el Mié Feb 07, 2018 8:54 pm

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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Jue Feb 08, 2018 10:54 pm

Algo tendrá el agua cuando la bendicen :)
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor Silver Surfer el Vie Feb 09, 2018 2:07 am

A esperar mejores resultados que las version AWACS entonces. :wink: De momento el cliente de base es Jordania.
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor Silver Surfer el Sab Feb 10, 2018 3:28 am

If Grintchenko has been as vocal behind the scenes as he was in London, the French Army’s aviation arm might end up looking very different over the next six years.


Poca memoria institucional de lo que fue una de las mejores herramientas de politica post colonial francesa en Africa: El SEPECAT Jaguar. Un aparato muy supeior en prestaciones a cualquier turboprop y con menos coste que un Rafale actual. En agosto de 1978 se estableció un escuadrón de reacción rápida armado convencionalmente, destinado a desplegarse en apoyo de fuerzas e intereses a cualquier parte del mundo. Se estrena contra el Polisario en Mauritania y continua su carrera estelar en Chad, Rep. Centro Africana, Libia, etc. Posteriormente este aparato tiene protagonismo en mas conflictos fuera de este area pero su huella en el Sahel fue ejemplar.

Imagen
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor Orel el Sab Feb 10, 2018 11:17 am

Poca memoria institucional de lo que fue una de las mejores herramientas de politica post colonial francesa en Africa: El SEPECAT Jaguar. Un aparato muy supeior en prestaciones a cualquier turboprop

Buen punto.

Aparte, ataque reciente de un A-10 a un coche en Astán:


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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Sab Feb 10, 2018 6:30 pm

Era otra época, no tenían nada mejor y usaban lo que tenían. Pero un SEPECAT no tiene persistencia como un turboprop, es más caro de operar y necesita pistas preparadas
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Sab Feb 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Y esto puede pasar cuando se ataca a baja altura con un helo sin blindar

https://twitter.com/MrKyruer/status/962303280222175233
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor Orel el Sab Feb 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Puede pasar. Pero es la excepción, como muestran años de operaciones por parte de Italia y Francia, y en menor medida Alemania y España, de helicópteros Mangusta y Tigre, y operando a baja altura, su entorno natural.
Con eso no estoy apoyando que deban tener o no blindaje, simplemente que la realidad operativa no es que no puedan volar bajo ni que se derriben fácilmente.
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor PelotonRueda el Sab Feb 10, 2018 7:56 pm

poliorcetes escribió:Y esto puede pasar cuando se ataca a baja altura con un helo sin blindar

Les pasa a los " 62 t " de blindaje con orugas y pum pum, ¿ no les va a pasar a una chapa de aluminio con rotor ?

Poliorcetes :wink: , el blindaje no lo es todo.
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor PelotonRueda el Sab Feb 10, 2018 8:18 pm

poliorcetes escribió:The head of the service's aviation arm is eager to get modern choppers, too, but says fixed-wing planes make more sense in various situations.

Vamos a ver, no vamos a comparar un útil desarrollado específicamente para apretar/aflojar un determinado tornillo a una navaja suiza. El problema es si no se tiene el primero, se tendrá que emplear el segundo.

El problema de todo siempre es el mismo, la falta de dinero, lo que quieren y desean ellos lo saben de antemano.
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Dom Feb 11, 2018 12:40 am

Orel escribió:Puede pasar. Pero es la excepción, como muestran años de operaciones por parte de Italia y Francia, y en menor medida Alemania y España, de helicópteros Mangusta y Tigre, y operando a baja altura, su entorno natural.
Con eso no estoy apoyando que deban tener o no blindaje, simplemente que la realidad operativa no es que no puedan volar bajo ni que se derriben fácilmente.


Claro que pueden volar bajo. Corriendo riesgos elevados, sobre todo contra un enemigo bien preparado, entrenado y motivado. Les está pasando también con los carros, lo que me da que pensar que operacionalmente no están a la altura que se les suponía
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Re: Misiones CAS, COIN y contra objetivos de oportunidad

Notapor poliorcetes el Dom Feb 11, 2018 12:44 am

PelotonRueda escribió:
poliorcetes escribió:Y esto puede pasar cuando se ataca a baja altura con un helo sin blindar

Les pasa a los " 62 t " de blindaje con orugas y pum pum, ¿ no les va a pasar a una chapa de aluminio con rotor ?

Poliorcetes :wink: , el blindaje no lo es todo.


Peras y manzanas

Lo que son peras y peras es un "helo de ataque" sin blindar y uno blindado. El castigo que puede aguantar uno y otro. Y las cifras de pérdidas a poco que se empleen de forma sistemática... tal y como se pueden calcular, porque no se ha hecho contra un enemigo de entidad desde 2003
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